Can someone clarify this for me please? I just want a rational answer. Some people put away tobacco blends to age for years, even a decade or more. I am wondering, does this really make sense? First of all, does the tobacco really change that much after that many years? And even if it does, how would you know if an aging blend is going to end up tasting better or worse than when it was “fresh?” There are anecdotes from people that claim aged blends are better, but that doesn’t really prove anything. Is there any science about this?
Cellaring tobacco?
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Many growers here on the forum have made home built kilns to “speed age” their cured leaves. A couple months in the kiln equals several years of natural aging because the proper natural climate conditions for aging only occur at certain times of the year at the intersection of the necessary humidity and temperature. The kilns can also be used to flue cure process green flue cure varieties (Virginia bright leafs). I have tried raw fresh cured, naturally aged, and kilned tobacco and I have only seen improvement with age, never a degradation. You can store the leaf out of case (dry, crispy) and the aging stops, spritz lightly with water to bring it into case and the aging starts back up. If you find your leaf is perfect like it is, you could store it dry and it wouldn’t age anymore. I have leaf from 2012 that’s still wonderful.
That‘s good, but does it taste better now than it did in 2012? About the same? Slightly different?
It hasn’t gotten worse. At one point I just let it dry out so there’s zero hassle. I have bags and cardboard boxes of the stuff, spritzing all that to keep it in case and aging just seemed like more work than the improvement gained. I reached “good enough” awhile back. If it got any better they’d have to lock me up.
ChinaVoodoo
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Homegrown most definitely improves over time. So do cigars. If you're referring to the cellaring of commercial pipe tobacco blends, you might want to ask about that in a pipe smokers forum. I don't think it's a fable, but I have my doubts that changes would be profound because of the amount of processing in commercial pipe tobacco.
If I had to guess,
100% of homegrowers would say yes, age it.
90% of cigar smokers would say, the tobacco has already been aged before the cigar got here, so I'm just going to smoke it, but a couple years would smooth it out a bit.
5% of pipe smokers would say their aged tin of Esoterica made them see God.
20% of pipe smokers would be absolutely convinced the tobacco got better
50% of pipe smokers would think it kinda sorta got better and try to convince themselves their cellar is worth it because of rising tobacco prices and discontinuation of blends
25% of pipe smokers would codger up and call it all bullcrap
If I had to guess,
100% of homegrowers would say yes, age it.
90% of cigar smokers would say, the tobacco has already been aged before the cigar got here, so I'm just going to smoke it, but a couple years would smooth it out a bit.
5% of pipe smokers would say their aged tin of Esoterica made them see God.
20% of pipe smokers would be absolutely convinced the tobacco got better
50% of pipe smokers would think it kinda sorta got better and try to convince themselves their cellar is worth it because of rising tobacco prices and discontinuation of blends
25% of pipe smokers would codger up and call it all bullcrap
Ok, I found this thread: https://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/a-kiln-tobacco-the-process-and-why.4256/
I’m getting the impression that diminishing returns sets in after a couple of years of aging. I’m also intrigued by speed aging.
I’m getting the impression that diminishing returns sets in after a couple of years of aging. I’m also intrigued by speed aging.
Henry Clay cigars, back in the good old days, were always made in the Dominican Republic. They were potent and harsh, in a premium and consistent sort of way. (In retrospect, they were probably 100% Piloto Cubano tobacco.) I maintained a love-hate relationship with Henry Clay, until the cigar boom of the late 1990s, when all cigars turned to crap. Some years ago, I was able to obtain 10 pre-cigar-boom Henry Clay cigars that were 20+ years old. My plan was to send one of them to each of several relatives and friends.
I lit one up.
I had a large tin of original Balkan Sobranie Smoking Mixture (i.e. Balkan Sobranie White) for many years. I rationed it. Very slowly. Although it always brought back fond memories, the aromas gradually became less and less interesting. My own blend called "Balkan White", from my Latakia blending matrix tasted more like the original Balkan Sobranie Smoking Mixture than the real stuff left in the bottom of the real can of it.
My guess: From the date that tobacco is finished (cured then mostly fermented--naturally or kilned) the subsequent 3 to 5 years seems to noticeably reduce the less enjoyable volatile compounds it contains. Thereafter, the unique and interesting volatile compounds that we enjoy gradually begin to dissipate. Pipe tobacco that is blended has mostly melded its aromas after a week or two. Pressing brings about additional changes unrelated to simple "cellaring".
I think that when your tobacco world consists exclusively of commercial factory product, there is a motivation to seek out hidden secrets--the esoteric knowledge of the few. How many tins of commercial pipe blend can you really balance on the head of a pin?
Like bananas or scented candles or oregano, tobacco of every sort has a lifespan of desirable aroma. Really old tobacco just smells like meh.
Bob
I lit one up.
- Nicotine level unchanged (i.e. still too high)
- Harshness only slightly reduced
- Interesting, subtle aromas decreased
I had a large tin of original Balkan Sobranie Smoking Mixture (i.e. Balkan Sobranie White) for many years. I rationed it. Very slowly. Although it always brought back fond memories, the aromas gradually became less and less interesting. My own blend called "Balkan White", from my Latakia blending matrix tasted more like the original Balkan Sobranie Smoking Mixture than the real stuff left in the bottom of the real can of it.
My guess: From the date that tobacco is finished (cured then mostly fermented--naturally or kilned) the subsequent 3 to 5 years seems to noticeably reduce the less enjoyable volatile compounds it contains. Thereafter, the unique and interesting volatile compounds that we enjoy gradually begin to dissipate. Pipe tobacco that is blended has mostly melded its aromas after a week or two. Pressing brings about additional changes unrelated to simple "cellaring".
I think that when your tobacco world consists exclusively of commercial factory product, there is a motivation to seek out hidden secrets--the esoteric knowledge of the few. How many tins of commercial pipe blend can you really balance on the head of a pin?
Like bananas or scented candles or oregano, tobacco of every sort has a lifespan of desirable aroma. Really old tobacco just smells like meh.
Bob
GL Pease has useful information on tobacco aging that may answer your questions. Look for the section called On the Aging of Tobaccos:
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I bought a bundle of Guaranteed Jamaicans from the brick and mortar that had been in their storage for ten years and I loved them so I ordered a new bundle and they were very different. It's entirely possible that the recipe changed, but I'm leaning more to the effects of age.
Jamaican cigars used to be made with Jamaican tobacco. For at least the past 15 years, commercial cigar tobacco has not been grown in Jamaica, due to labor costs.
Bob
Bob
Could you speed up the aging if you put the commercial tin of pipe tobacco to a warmer place ?
I think it should be possible because the mold inhibators should prevent spoiling it at below kiln like temperatures, or am i wrong ?
I think it should be possible because the mold inhibators should prevent spoiling it at below kiln like temperatures, or am i wrong ?
Depends on who you ask. Pease is against the idea and maintains that tins should be stored in a cool dark place with a consistent temp and that there's no way to speed natural fermentation but plenty of ways to ruin it (including heat). There are others, including commercial blenders like Ken Byron Ventures, that experiement with using low heat for a period of weeks to accelerate natural fermentation without actually stoving the tobacco.
I've been playing with the idea myself on some of my own pressings. I've been using a heating pad to keep the temp around 90 degrees for a few jars. It's too early to say what effect it's really had but I did pop the top on a VaPer of mine that I've been keep warm for about a month. The tin note was very fruity--much more so that I've noticed in the past. But flavor changes I'm not so sure.
After all that i read it would surprise me if it dosen't speed things up. I have the same experiment since 4 days. I packed a tin of virginia flake near my radiator. I definitly want to hear how your experiment is going
Be aware that when we talk about kilning on the forum we are speaking in terms of home growers kilning freshly cured leaf after harvest which will have a raw flavor without further aging. I have never seen the need to kiln whole leaf tobacco from www.wholeleaftobacco.com. It is already aged and ready to smoke. I can’t speak to commercial tins of tobacco or how long the leaves were aged prior to blending and packaging. You may be launching a new experiment and if so, please post your results.
I see. Ok then. I’ll plan on experimenting then, but it will be later this year.
The temperatures used in my home tobacco kiln fluctuate between 123°F and 128°F [~50°C to ~53°C] (for two months). At these temperatures, there is no vegetative fungal growth, and likely little growth of bacteria common to my tobacco growing environment.
~
courses.lumenlearning.com
These kilning temperatures may not be sufficient to kill the organisms, but they cannot proliferate and actively ferment anything. [Some hard cheeses are often made using thermophilic cultures.] Under these kiln conditions, and within the "hot" center of pilones (piled tobacco bulks), the primary fermentative process is mediated by the leaf's intrinsic enzymes.
By contrast, low temperature tobacco fermentation (typically under pressure) does allow microbial growth and microbe mediated fermentative processes. This is what we see with pressed tobacco at ambient temperatures (below ~90°F). The array of microbial species that proliferate is random and extensive. [Perique processing is similar, but carried out beneath a liquid seal, thus maintaining an anaerobic (oxygen-free) environment, and selecting specifically for Pichia anomala and likely other related yeast species, which yield characteristic perique.]
Here is a study from 1944 on low-temperature fermentation of tobacco.
This may be more applicable to cellaring pipe blends.
Bob
~Temperature and Microbial Growth | Microbiology | Study Guides
courses.lumenlearning.com
These kilning temperatures may not be sufficient to kill the organisms, but they cannot proliferate and actively ferment anything. [Some hard cheeses are often made using thermophilic cultures.] Under these kiln conditions, and within the "hot" center of pilones (piled tobacco bulks), the primary fermentative process is mediated by the leaf's intrinsic enzymes.
By contrast, low temperature tobacco fermentation (typically under pressure) does allow microbial growth and microbe mediated fermentative processes. This is what we see with pressed tobacco at ambient temperatures (below ~90°F). The array of microbial species that proliferate is random and extensive. [Perique processing is similar, but carried out beneath a liquid seal, thus maintaining an anaerobic (oxygen-free) environment, and selecting specifically for Pichia anomala and likely other related yeast species, which yield characteristic perique.]
Here is a study from 1944 on low-temperature fermentation of tobacco.
This may be more applicable to cellaring pipe blends.
Bob
The temperatures used in my home tobacco kiln fluctuate between 123°F and 128°F [~50°C to ~53°C] (for two months). At these temperatures, there is no vegetative fungal growth, and likely little growth of bacteria common to my tobacco growing environment.
View attachment 35108~
Temperature and Microbial Growth | Microbiology | Study Guides
These kilning temperatures may not be sufficient to kill the organisms, but they cannot proliferate and actively ferment anything. [Some hard cheeses are often made using thermophilic cultures.] Under these kiln conditions, and within the "hot" center of pilones (piled tobacco bulks), the primary fermentative process is mediated by the leaf's intrinsic enzymes.
By contrast, low temperature tobacco fermentation (typically under pressure) does allow microbial growth and microbe mediated fermentative processes. This is what we see with pressed tobacco at ambient temperatures (below ~90°F). The array of microbial species that proliferate is random and extensive. [Perique processing is similar, but carried out beneath a liquid seal, thus maintaining an anaerobic (oxygen-free) environment, and selecting specifically for Pichia anomala and likely other related yeast species, which yield characteristic perique.]
Here is a study from 1944 on low-temperature fermentation of tobacco.
This may be more applicable to cellaring pipe blends.
Bob
So cellaring really can’t be sped up with higher temps, I guess. I did see one website recommending cellaring at between 50 and 59 degrees F. They didn’t give a reasoning for it though. That would be more in the psychrophile range.
Microbial growth rate (i.e. accelerated fermentation) is likely optimized near the vicinity of the species' growth optimum, as shown in the graph. So, for mesophiles, around 90 to 95°F. Enzymatic reactions increase rate with higher temperature not in a linear fashion, but in a logarithmic curve, up to their denaturing temp.
You should recognize that there is a dramatic paucity of modern research published on these subjects. So we can only make best guesses, based on what was studied 60+ years ago with regard to tobacco processing. An exception is China, which still publishes quite a bit, but is usually available in English only for the study abstracts.
Bob
You should recognize that there is a dramatic paucity of modern research published on these subjects. So we can only make best guesses, based on what was studied 60+ years ago with regard to tobacco processing. An exception is China, which still publishes quite a bit, but is usually available in English only for the study abstracts.
Bob
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