Growing cigar leaf in central Italy: @UmbriaFarmer

[deluxestogie]

If you attempt to operate your kiln at temperatures below 123°F, then expect the leaf to mold. At 123°F and above, the higher the temp, the faster the enzymatic oxidative process. Above 130°F, I notice a vague, "burnt toast" aroma. Above 149°F, the primary intrinsic oxidative enzyme is destroyed.

For safe kilning, I suggest keeping the temperature between 123°F and 128°F, and allowing it to run for 6 to 8 weeks.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

If you attempt to operate your kiln at temperatures below 123°F, then expect the leaf to mold. At 123°F and above, the higher the temp, the faster the enzymatic oxidative process. Above 130°F, I notice a vague, "burnt toast" aroma. Above 149°F, the primary intrinsic oxidative enzyme is destroyed.

For safe kilning, I suggest keeping the temperature between 123°F and 128°F, and allowing it to run for 6 to 8 weeks.

Bob

Thanks for that. Those figures reassure me - I was stressing a bit because last night the temp of the pilon went up to 127F but I see from your numbers here the enzymes weren't at risk of being destroyed. Do you know if flavor changes occur in leaf fermented at the upper end of the range v the lower? BTW, in the first few days, when I had only been creeping the temps up slowly so as not to overshoot the 127 zone, I did identify some small areas of mould that weren't there when I started the process. That's why I slightly overshot my target yesterday as I wanted to get it up into the safe zone ASAP.

 

[deluxestogie]

Do you know if flavor changes occur in leaf fermented at the upper end of the range v the lower?

I set my parameters, and never sample the leaf until the kilning is ended AND the leaf has rested for about a week minimum.

So... No. I don't know.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

I set my parameters, and never sample the leaf until the kilning is ended AND the leaf has rested for about a week minimum.

So... No. I don't know.

Bob

Roger that.

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Roger that.

I've crept the temperature up to 127°F over the last 24 hours and today came to add another 6 hands, the last of the 2nd priming that have finished colour curing and when I opened the kiln to air out, rehydrate and add the new hands...wow, an unmistakable smell of urinals in a men's public washroom on a summer's day! So the ammonia is kicking off now, no mistake...

 

[deluxestogie]

The ammonia is created by the breakdown of proteins within the leaf. Always a promising sign.

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

The ammonia is created by the breakdown of proteins within the leaf. Always a promising sign.

Bob

I was expecting them but I didn't realise they would become obvious within a week. When I first lifted the lid, the first thing I noticed was a sharpness in the vapour that wasn't there 2 days ago. The pee smell didn't become obvious until I was airing the hands out. Anyway, all looking good thus far. I really appreciate you advice and knowledge Bob, thank you.

 

[StoneCarver]

.... computer issues.

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

I hope its ok if I step in. The recommendation to keep kiln temps above 49C is to make sure mold won't grow on your leaf whilst they are in the kiln. 52C is the ideal median temp. Above 54.5C and the enzymes required for aging break down; so keep the temp between 49C and 54.5C. The humidity needs to be kept above 70%rH iirc for the chemical changes to occur which is the "aging" of the leaf. I keep my kiln at 80%rH but I'm thinking about bumping it up to 85%. The way I look at it is the temperature is a safety measure whilst the humidity is what's doing the work of aging the leaf.

BTW: I don't know if you are aware of this variety but its my understanding that Nostrano del Brenta was developed in Italy. Its one of the varieties I'm growing this year and I have to say it has a remarkable rich flavor and aroma. Just something to consider trying next year if you haven't given it much thought.

You are welcome to chip in! I'm averaging 53°C and about 90%rh. I find much below that and some of the leaves begin to feel slightly dry and my spidey senses tell me wetter is gonna be better than dryer for fermentation. I'd to grow some nostrano di Brenta next year...where did you get the seed?

 

[StoneCarver]

Sorry, I didn't realize Bob had already responded. I was having some computer issues here.
I believe I got the seeds for Nostrano del Brenta from nwtseeds.com.

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Sorry, I didn't realize Bob had already responded. I was having some computer issues here.
I believe I got the seeds for Nostrano del Brenta from nwtseeds.com.

It's a shame but I've given up trying to buy stuff from the US, it's just too painful. USPS seem like incapable buffoons, Poste Italiane are absolutely incapable buffoons then add into the mix that for each minute quantity of different tobacco seeds, I have to pay $125 for a phytosanitary certificate...fuck that.

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

You are welcome to chip in! I'm averaging 53°C and about 90%rh. I find much below that and some of the leaves begin to feel slightly dry and my spidey senses tell me wetter is gonna be better than dryer for fermentation. I'd to grow some nostrano di Brenta next year...where did you get the seed?

What concerns me a bit is that Bob says at 149°F (65C) the enzymes die off whereas you say 54.5C, which is almost 10°C cooler. I was thinking that so long as I'm in the mid 50s, I was safely far from 65C....but now you've sewn doubts in my mind with your 54.5C figure. Is this a well researched science? Is there some reference source for this info? Where did you get the 54.5C figure from? Sorry to be irritating but I don't want to fuck this up!

 

[deluxestogie]

Curing and Fermentation of Cigar Leaf Tobacco by Oscar Loew
US Govt Printing Office 1899

p.28​

-oxidase denatured at 149 to 151 degrees F​

-peroxidase denatured at 188.6 to 190.4 degrees F​

Bob

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Curing and Fermentation of Cigar Leaf Tobacco by Oscar Loew
US Govt Printing Office 1899

p.28​

-oxidase denatured at 149 to 151 degrees F​

-peroxidase denatured at 188.6 to 190.4 degrees F​

Bob

Thank you Bob, very reassuring.

 

[StoneCarver]

I have to pay $125 for a phytosanitary certificate

I hear ya on that. Once I ordered some cactus seeds from an Eastern European nation, Romania I believe. US Customs confiscated the seeds and destroyed them. They were seeds of endangered species too. I've never understood why a consumer should have to be the one to obtain a phytosanitary certificate for something that the producer made. it doesn't make sense; I don't know if the seeds are phytosanitary or not. Why should I be the one to obtain the certificate? I'm just the guy buying the seeds. Though given that Nostrano del Brenta is an Italian variety, hopefully you can avoid the post altogether to acquire some seeds.

Its too easy for this conversation to get political; so I'll stop here.

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

I hear ya on that. Once I ordered some cactus seeds from an Eastern European nation, Romania I believe. US Customs confiscated the seeds and destroyed them. They were seeds of endangered species too. I've never understood why a consumer should have to be the one to obtain a phytosanitary certificate for something that the producer made. it doesn't make sense; I don't know if the seeds are phytosanitary or not. Why should I be the one to obtain the certificate? I'm just the guy buying the seeds. Though given that Nostrano del Brenta is an Italian variety, hopefully you can avoid the post altogether to acquire some seeds.

Its too easy for this conversation to get political; so I'll stop here.

Yes but the problem here is that there is zero culture of individuals growing their own tobacco. I don't actually want to delfe into, but several people have told me it's illegal for individuals to cultivate it. So I doubt there's much of a thriving market in small volume rare tobacco seeds here. That said, I shall do some research. Something I find odd is that I live in the very heart of Italy's tobacco growing area but I've never heard of a place called Brenta. Must check into this...

 

[UmbriaFarmer]

Yes but the problem here is that there is zero culture of individuals growing their own tobacco. I don't actually want to delfe into, but several people have told me it's illegal for individuals to cultivate it. So I doubt there's much of a thriving market in small volume rare tobacco seeds here. That said, I shall do some research. Something I find odd is that I live in the very heart of Italy's tobacco growing area but I've never heard of a place called Brenta. Must check into this...

So it turns out it's a variety cultivated here since the 1500s but only up north in the Veneto region. It seems to be quite widely grown and there are several brands of cigars available of just straight up nostrano of blended with Leaf from other countries. My search for seed has begun...