Questions Regarding Wrapper during Rolling Process

[CORoller55]

Hi Everybody,

I got my order 2 days ago. Ive since rolled 3 cigars, and couldnt resist the temptation to smoke one I will post pictures, maybe in another thread. Basically, my construction was absolutely terrible - the filler was far too loose, and it started tunneling right off the bat, needing to be constantly relit, and finally canoed severely to the point that i had to put it out of its misery!

However, I did take a lot away from that experience, and I now know that my filler was too dry, amongst other things...

Now Im rambling... The point of this thread is simple - Im having trouble with the wrapper. Im getting it on smooth enough, but when Im applying the wrapper it overlaps on itself multiple times making essentially a double or triple layered wrapper. I got the idea with the veins being parallel right on one of my cigars - the other 2 had spirally veins.

So, my questions:

What shape should I cut the wrapper leaf? (A diagram would be great!)
Should I start wrapping from the tip of the leaf or the base?
What angle should the wrapper leaf be to the cigar?
Should the wrapper leaf extend past the head of the cigar at the beginning of the wrapping process, or be flush?

Now, before you guys tell me theres lots of good youtube videos on this topic - trust me I know. But I happen to live in a country where youtube is blocked, and very few people smoke - let alone roll - cigars here. Thats why Im coming to you all with such a basic question!

Thanks for your time and effort. I will post pics here in the next couple of days!

Best,

L.

 

[CORoller55]

Heres a quick example of my toubles, using a quick sketch in Word :
First, this is how Im aligning the cigar with the wrapper. Im rolling from the bottom of the leaf, with the bottom veins parallel to the cigar, and the foot of the cigar flush with the edge of the wrapper leaf:

Then Im folding the wrapper leaf over the cigar like this, and as I stated previously, as I roll the cigar up the leaf, the wrapper keeps on rolling over itself, resulting in several layers of wrapper:

When I get to the top its looking like this, and Im trying to cut a flag near the head, but since the leaf is still wide I end up cutting the part under the flag straight across, as below:

Lastly, this is a cross section of my cigar:
Red: wrapper
Blue: binder
Green: filler

I know my sketches leave a lot to be desired, but I hope Ive made sense nonetheless and I hope to be humbled by your advice!

 

[webmost]

Not a real skilled drawyer, myself; but I can tell you in a few words:

1) Lay the leaf as flat as you can (a wet surface helps), veins up.

2) Trim the outer edge of the leaf to make a sharp wrapper edge.

3) Cut a strip around three inches wide (seven and a half centimeters to those metrically inclined) off that outer edge.

There's your wrapper. That curved strip. All that coarse veined almond shaped inner wrapper --- that's scrap. On a machine made cigar, you'd be amazed how little wrapper there actually is. FX Smiths may get four to six wraps out of one big Connie leaf. The wrapper only overlaps by a quarter inch. Hand rolled will overlap more; I prolly overlap more like an inch; but certainly not enough to triple your layers.

Oh, and...
4) Get the heck out of that blighted country, cause YouTube is da bom. Where are you, anyways?

Any of you fellow FTT members who may have made a vid and posted to YouTube, if you send it to me (via DropBox or the like) I can post it on my own server, which hopefully is not banned in our new friend's country.

 

[Smokin Harley]

Hi Everybody,

I got my order 2 days ago. Ive since rolled 3 cigars, and couldnt resist the temptation to smoke one I will post pictures, maybe in another thread. Basically, my construction was absolutely terrible - the filler was far too loose, and it started tunneling right off the bat, needing to be constantly relit, and finally canoed severely to the point that i had to put it out of its misery!

However, I did take a lot away from that experience, and I now know that my filler was too dry, amongst other things...

Now Im rambling... The point of this thread is simple - Im having trouble with the wrapper. Im getting it on smooth enough, but when Im applying the wrapper it overlaps on itself multiple times making essentially a double or triple layered wrapper. I got the idea with the veins being parallel right on one of my cigars - the other 2 had spirally veins.

So, my questions:

What shape should I cut the wrapper leaf? (A diagram would be great!)
Should I start wrapping from the tip of the leaf or the base?
What angle should the wrapper leaf be to the cigar?
Should the wrapper leaf extend past the head of the cigar at the beginning of the wrapping process, or be flush?

Now, before you guys tell me theres lots of good youtube videos on this topic - trust me I know. But I happen to live in a country where youtube is blocked, and very few people smoke - let alone roll - cigars here. Thats why Im coming to you all with such a basic question!

Thanks for your time and effort. I will post pics here in the next couple of days!

Best,

L.

I will assume you are rolling free hand without a mould . If you roll your leaf entubado( rolling each individual leaf into a loose tube)keep the tip of the leaves at the same end,lets say at your thumb end, take 2 or 3 leaves rolled this way (aka"the bunch") into your left hand use your hand width as the rough length of the cigar ,break off what hangs out above and below keeping the ends respective to the bunch and put it back into the bunch in your hand . filler should be very dry but not so dry to make crumbly dust. I doubt your filler is too dry if you just got it(from WLT?) your binder leaf mid rib needs to be removed whether by hand or knife. It should also be situated so that the tip of the leaf is at the same end as the leaf tip end of the bunch. The bunch should lay on the binder leaf (binder leaf lays with the natural top side of the leaf facing up)so that the ribs of the binder are parallel to the bunch .Case the binder to just damp ,if you're pulling it from a fresh bag from WLT you shouldn't need to do anything, it is roll ready. Use the whole binder leaf ,just lay on half over the other ,keep the ribs laying the same direction. Keep the bunch straight as you roll it firmly ,one twist will make draw impossible if not just very difficult. Once you get to the other end , take the leftover leaf end and tuck it back over the rolled bunch. roll it over the rolling board and feel for soft spots with your finger tips. If you feel any , unroll and fill those spots with more leaf, reroll and repeat as necessary. Once you are satisfied your bunch has been bound firmly , set it aside to rest a few minutes .If you left the end tucked it should not unroll itself while you prepare your wrapper leaf. wrapper leaf , again main rib must be removed ,trim the leaf to about 3 inches wide and make a nice smooth cut . Remove the tucked part of the binder you left on the head end as it rested using the chaveta .twist it a little working the binder leaf tip to a smooth rounded cone , close to the cigar leaving a tiny pigtail, cut close and press the tip of the chaveta into this pigtail and into the end of the cigar locking the binder end ,what you cut off is scrap but put it in a bag of scrap for a mixed cigar later. Case the wrapper so it is very moist using distilled water in a spray bottle,let it sit a minute then dab it damp dry with a paper towel. The wrapper leaf lays natural top side down ,natural tip towards you (same end as the tip end of the bunch)align the bound bunch to again parallel to the ribs ,start by tucking the tip of the wrapper leaf around the tip or foot end of the bunch. Keeping the leaf ahead of the bunch smooth and wrinkle free , roll slowly , giving the wrapper a slight stretch as you go. When you come to the end ,apply some glue to the edge of the leaf as it will roll onto the head of the cigar. trim most of the leaf and at an angle away from the head of the cigar, leaving a small "flag" which will serve as part one of the cap. If you have glue ( fruit pectin mixed to a smooth snot like consistency) apply this with a finger tip to the flag. as you roll the flag over the head, smooth it out and keep working it firmly but not so hard you crush the head. it takes a while and a few cigars to get the flag rolled right into a cap. Practice . Without a video to help you it might be difficult to picture mentally. the cap is nothing but a small circle of clean leaf(no rib) I use a 1/2" copper fitting apply glue to the cap and cut the cap with the fitting. you will probably need to knock the circle out of the copper , then turn the head end of the cigar down and onto the cap. smooth it out . Take the finished cigar and roll it with the flat side of the chaveta to smooth it out , setting the ribs . take your finger and thumb of your left hand and form a circle around the head end of the cigar(like making the OK sign but tighter) , using your thumb, push the foot end of the cigar so the cigar slides through the circle keeping a little resistance with the thumb/finger circle . This smooths out the wrapper overlap and stretches the wrapper leaf a little more. You're done. let it set a few weeks so it dries out and the flavors marry. Keep going. practice makes perfect....which I'm still working on myself.

 

[Gdaddy]

 

[webmost]

There's a guy knows how top draw. Good job Gdaddy.

 

[Smokin Harley]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9heepl-hAXo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC7wAFjb1uA

If someone can post these so you can view them , Tim Torres is a great cuban roller who explains what is being done and why.

 

[CORoller55]

Great info guys! This has all been beyong helpful and I now see my errors! Hopefully Ill roll a couple new ones today or tomorrow and show y'all some pics! Just dont laugh!

Oh, and @ webmost, I live in a village in China, working as a manager in a large factory. My wife is also from near here, so I wont be leaving anytime soon - then again Ive already been here for years

Merry Christmas!

 

[deluxestogie]

...I live in a village in China...

You are the sole representative of 1/4 of the world's population on FTT.

Bob

 

[CORoller55]

@ Smoking Harley - that was a wonderful and very thorough response! I think I can understand all your directions quite well - except Im not quite clear on the part about tucking the end of the binder into the head of the cigar? How are you tucking it in - underneath itself? Thanks again to everyone taking the time to respond to my newb questions!

Merry Christmas!

 

[CORoller55]

@ Deluxe Stogie - well I guess I can say Im honored! It sure is a fun and unique passtime that weve got here, and I think it would be great if it we had more members from all over!

Also, here in China if you find stogies you can only find cubans (not that Im complaining, exactly!) But they start at about 15USD for a Romeo y Julieta No. 2 all the way up to over 150USD for a Behike! Average prices would be 40-70USD, for a single stogie! Ill pass...

 

[Smokin Harley]

@ Smoking Harley - that was a wonderful and very thorough response! I think I can understand all your directions quite well - except Im not quite clear on the part about tucking the end of the binder into the head of the cigar? How are you tucking it in - underneath itself? Thanks again to everyone taking the time to respond to my newb questions!

Merry Christmas!

" Once you get to the other end , take the leftover leaf end and tuck it back over the rolled bunch. roll it over the rolling board and feel for soft spots with your finger tips. If you feel any , unroll and fill those spots with more leaf, reroll and repeat as necessary. Once you are satisfied your bunch has been bound firmly , set it aside to rest a few minutes .If you left the end tucked it should not unroll itself while you prepare your wrapper leaf. wrapper leaf , again main rib must be removed ,trim the leaf to about 3 inches wide and make a nice smooth cut . Remove the tucked part of the binder you left on the head end as it rested using the chaveta .twist it a little working the binder leaf tip to a smooth rounded cone "

is this the passage you are referring to?

Tuck the end of the binder ...as I read your question I think what I should have written was more on the lines of the far end of the binder to "fold it back over the head end for now" as it rests as you prep the wrapper. If you were to cut it off right away it may and probably will unroll and its a pain to get it back to the same exact rolled position. Folding the "scrap" over allows the leaf material to take on a memory as such .If you were using a mould this material would be allowed to stick out the end of the mould as it gets a rest period. Just before unmoulding this "tail" of binder would be cut off evenly against the side of the mould . the small amount left after the cut is then pressed into the head of the cigar with fingernail or chaveta before wrapper goes on.
I hope that makes more sense. I tried as much as I could to run the whole process step by tiny step through my head as I wrote. If you need any more clarification , please let me know.

 

[CORoller55]

Smoking Harley, thats great, now I understand perfectly what you meant! Thanks for taking the time to type that up!

I do have another question... ... I bought the CT 1 DW Maduro Wrapper, and Ive been having 2 issues with it. 1. My Wrapper leaves have quite a few large holes in maybe 50-70% of them. I havent had a single perfect wrapper yet, even though Ive only used maybe 5 leaves. Is this normal quality, or along the lines of what you would expect? I was surprised because my Dom. Binder is pressed flat and seems to have fewer holes than my wrapper.

2. From what Ive seen the rollers (not just the torcedores at the factories but many home-rollers as well) have managed to get their wrapper leaf very supple, and almost perfectly flat, with no bumps/ridges/folds, etc. So Im wondering how are you guys rehydrating and prepping your wrapper leaf? Currently Ive been sticking mine in a bag and misting it, but it comes out some parts soaked, some parts still crunchy, and I can never get it "paper" flat... Any trickes you guys would be willing to tell me?

I rolled 2 more sticks last night. I was surprised at how uniform the length and diameter were, considering I was free-rolling it and wasnt even trying to make them uniform. They only deviated maybe a quarter inch in length, and another 1/8 inch in diameter! Now Im really starting to believe the stories of the "size" of the cigar being hugely dependent on the hands of the roller...

Hope you all had a wonderful Christmas!

 

[DGBAMA]

If you have soft and dry spots in the same leaf, you are simply rushing the hydrating process.

 

[CORoller55]

OK, good to know... I hydrated mine overnight last time, and they were a bit better - still not so supple as the pictures... I guess Ill just keep trying. Maybe since the maduro leaf is so thick it's just really slow to hydrate?

Ill post pics soon...

 

[Smokin Harley]

how big are the holes, where are the holes in relation to the leaf? If they are close to the main midrib it shouldnt be a problem just cut the leaf as per that illustration . sometimes if you have a wrapper that you need to salvage , take another leaf, find a section on the stalk end of that leaf (which would generally be leftover scrap) and cut out a section between ribs ,apply a little dab of glue to the damaged area of the leaf you're currently rolling with and paste in this patch making sure the edges are smooth. Roll your wrapper .All a wrapper is for the most part is a pretty covering,it does impart some taste though. A well rolled cigar should be able to be smoked in binder .
Take your time hydrating/casing the wrapper leaf. I mist mine in the morning wrap in paper towel mist that again ,loosely roll it up and put it in a baggie to rest . About an hour or two is usually good for even moisture. About the time It takes to bind a half dozen sticks , your wrapper should be cased enough to be stretchy and supple. Mist your rolling surface and the wrapper should stay put to be flat and smooth once you pull it out and stretch it. Take your time.

 

[CORoller55]

Heres My first uggo... Canoed like crazy and couldn't stay lit. learned a lot though...

And heres burning it... I did find the flavors to be too simple.

A few of my more recent stogies (rolled 9 now). I'm fairly happy with the progression on the triple cap. A lot of the wrappers aren't too smooth because of the large holes present in my CT 1 DW Wrapper Leaf. Been trying some different blends with my Nicaraguan... Still find they're all too bland - but I like the earthy flavours present throughout the whole smoke.

Let me know if you have any advice for me to improve my skills! Ill try to make a mold soon, thats my next step...

 

[Gdaddy]

What tobacco do you have to use in your blends?

My first priority would be to get good flavor and worry about appearance later.

 

[CORoller55]

All Nic. Fillers, Dom. Binder and CT 1 DW wrapper... Next Im gonna order a sampler of maybe 20 types of leaves to play with.... Construction has greatly imrpoved, I'd say. But yes, I am trying to find the right flavours - as you may be able to see each cigar has a different blend, with it written on the label to keep track of it. So far I havent found a favorite ratio to tweak with.

 

[Smokin Harley]

ok, the first and second picture ...it looks like you need to tighten up the bunch and wrapper and trim the wrapper leaf edge a bit . Fifth picture. the far right one looks a little loose in bunching and binding. the other ones in the fifth pic look great as far as bunch and binder tightness. wrapper looks like it may have been a little dry . 6th pic ,the close up, caps look a bit large . what are you using to make the caps , I use a 1/2- 3/4 " copper fitting mostly use the 1/2 end for cap . make sure the leaf section is cased high enough to get some stretch and work it down the shoulder of the head end to smooth ,I put a good amount of glue on my caps . I'm still not a great capper so my advice may mean nothing. the cap basically is a lock to hold the wrapper flag down and cover the twist or pigtail at the end . If you dont want to cap it (for yourself) you dont really need to its pretty much for appearance . just twist it enough it starts to twist back onto itself and tuck some under the base of the twist (pigtail tip) if that makes much sense. Its something I just did and it worked and it actually looks pretty cool too. its getting cut off before you smoke it anyway.