What am i doing wrong with Whole Leaf Tobacco blends?

[Mad Oshea]

Yea I know . Got to figure if the Mammoth and Havana Or the Silk leaf and scanta were a diff in the mix I made on that one ? Do You think the spearmint would make it pop? Sniff ,Snuss or snuff? AmaxB Your a blast buddy, You stay Gold.

 

[FmGrowit]

There are many variables that lead to a great smoke. Starting with properly cured, high grade leaf is the first thing to start with. Improperly cured, poor quality leaf can be salvaged with all kinds of wizardry.

Some of the best tobacco I've ever smoked has been cured on the stalk in the field.

 

[holyRYO]

Michael B. Smith has all the signs of a negative spammer with this thread. Not ligit imo, waste of time, no longer care.

 

[FmGrowit]

That's kind of what I thought at first, but he's legitimate...regular customer actually.

 

[holyRYO]

My apologies to Mr. Smith and the forum, looks like some good has come out of it, my bad.

 

[AmaxB]

There are many variables that lead to a great smoke. Starting with properly cured, high grade leaf is the first thing to start with. Improperly cured, poor quality leaf can be salvaged with all kinds of wizardry.

Some of the best tobacco I've ever smoked has been cured on the stalk in the field.

How are you my friend?
Just knew I would ignite something with that post, it is good to stir the soup brings players to the board.

You know tobacco and no one can disagree with properly cured. The post was not an attempt to degrade, imply the tobacco to be of poor quality, or cured alone cannot be good. The man had said his smoke was acidic

I was trying to point out there is more to tobacco than meets the eye. Fact is few people are willing to learn or invest and so as long as there are smokers big tobacco will sit high on their throne and many smokers will continue to pollute them selves while paying inflated cost. The masses want what they want and they want it yesterday. Unfortunately most who try leaf (if they try it) will screw it up some how or buy crap from a peddler who wants nothing more than to make a fast buck. That being said they will go back to what ever they did before.

The PooP
Leaf tobacco has been around forever, but many of us depend on others for their smokes and know nothing about working with it.
If you are going to get involved with leaf - buy it from someone who has made it their life and care about what it is they sell. (I won't name names but there are a few here)
Don't make the mistake of buying leaf and thinking it to be packaged smokes - this it will never be, you must do your part.
Read through the many threads on this forum - you will have to sift through the bla bla but it can and will payoff.
Research the books and online PDFs - come to know something about tobacco - it is like the many fine wines they all started from a grape, but becoming fine was not an accident (in most cases).

My smoking is a vice, a habit, my only vice. I refuse to give it up, I refuse to pay more than I should allowing my government to abuse me, I refuse to smoke chemical laced tobacco, and I don't smoke to feed an addiction.
I smoke to enjoy the tobacco the same as a beautiful lawn, a splendid rose, souped up car, or solo walk in the big woods on a pretty morning.

Get to know leaf tobacco and pursue a great smoke with passion.

 

[holyRYO]

Get to know leaf tobacco and pursue a great smoke with passion.

Amen

 

[deluxestogie]

The third step is to put it up for cold sweat...30 days. We can do this with the tobacco in a just above medium case held in a sealed moisture tight bag before shredding with all leaves to be used in the blend in the bag.

A proper case for cold sweat (after kilning tobacco will have a higher resistance to molding with bright leaf having a higher resistance than Burley) the tobacco leaf will feel like soft leather and have some stretch but not be the slightest bit wet.

...the tobacco is only as good as...the understanding of the process.

I appreciate AmaxB's comments on this subject.

I'll begin by disagreeing with the final statement in the excerpt from AmaxB. For most of tobacco history, the wonderful and unique approaches to curing and finishing the leaf were recognized as important, despite a near total lack of understanding of the process. So, I'll say that doing it in a way that works--a method that gives you what you want--counts for more than understanding what you're doing.

Next, I agree strongly with AmaxB about a final, missing process. One that we often fail to mention, when advising others. It's what determines the difference between a satisfactory result and something spectacular. He calls it a "cold sweat." (I'm not sure if that's the same "cold sweat" that the factory folks refer to.) I have called it "resting the leaf in case," following the kilning process.

Newly kilned leaf is sometimes very nice. More often, it reveals off aromas and subtle chemical annoyances. The most dramatic change seems to occur when the kilned leaf is brought back into case, then rested 3 days. But I've also noticed that after about 3+ weeks of resting in case, the kilned leaf seems to come into its varietal glory.

So, what's happening here? My simple answer is that I don't understand the process. It may be nothing more than out-gassing of noxious, oxidation byproducts. Perhaps this directly accounts for the changes in the first few days after kilning. I guess that's how I've thought of it. But it may just as likely be other chemical processes that can't seem to move to completion while at kiln temps, but kick into action when the temp is more moderate. I don't know.

Bob

FOOTNOTE: It doesn't matter who started this thread. It's a good thread for all to read.

 

[AmaxB]

I appreciate AmaxB's comments on this subject.

I'll begin by disagreeing with the final statement in the excerpt from AmaxB. For most of tobacco history, the wonderful and unique approaches to curing and finishing the leaf were recognized as important, despite a near total lack of understanding of the process. So, I'll say that doing it in a way that works--a method that gives you what you want--counts for more than understanding what you're doing.

Next, I agree strongly with AmaxB about a final, missing process. One that we often fail to mention, when advising others. It's what determines the difference between a satisfactory result and something spectacular. He calls it a "cold sweat." (I'm not sure if that's the same "cold sweat" that the factory folks refer to.) I have called it "resting the leaf in case," following the kilning process.

Newly kilned leaf is sometimes very nice. More often, it reveals off aromas and subtle chemical annoyances. The most dramatic change seems to occur when the kilned leaf is brought back into case, then rested 3 days. But I've also noticed that after about 3+ weeks of resting in case, the kilned leaf seems to come into its varietal glory.

So, what's happening here? My simple answer is that I don't understand the process. It may be nothing more than out-gassing of noxious, oxidation byproducts. Perhaps this directly accounts for the changes in the first few days after kilning. I guess that's how I've thought of it. But it may just as likely be other chemical processes that can't seem to move to completion while at kiln temps, but kick into action when the temp is more moderate. I don't know.

Bob

FOOTNOTE: It doesn't matter who started this thread. It's a good thread for all to read.

Thank You Bob your words are always heard with respect

But I must disagree with your disagree- We might fall into something and get lucky but may have trouble repeating it, thus understanding what you did is needed.
Years and years ago they fell in to it and said oh boy this is good. Then began the pursuit to understand what and why was born so it might be improved and repeated. After this came the thought of how can this be done faster.

You and I know it is out-gassing of the not wanted, how ever change really starts to take place after the first few days and on into the weeks. I have been running for sometime, batch after batch, test after test, and this may be of help to some. You can start the kiln at 115F but must increase to at least 119F on the third day or suffer mold. You can also start at 118 - 119F and run 3 weeks. On the start of the 4th week increase to 122F but you must not be wet in this process from start to finish or you will suffer mold - this works best with bulks of 10 or more pounds. Beginning on the 2nd week reorder the tobacco once a week this allows it to air and removing it from the kiln to do so will not stop the processes taking place. Going the extra - the start of week 5 increase to 128 - 130F this will help the tobacco resit molding while in cold sweat from a few days to many months if put up correctly. Running the kiln above 130F is bad for bright leaf in can work in the revers of what is wanted. I am likely the only one here who does this, I use sealed tubs _ Like a Hogshead_ and would suggest it. But do use the right kind of tub to avoid leaching. Do not mix tobaccos in the bulk.

To rest or cold sweat the tobacco will take it up a level or two how ever at a point in time all stops. If a mix of whole leaves are put up for the cold sweat they will meld enhancing the blend. While in cold sweat the tobacco will ripen with enriched flavors and aromas, but as Bob pointed out it is not the same as in the kiln. I have found thirty to 60 days to be a nice time frame but have read it can go for as much as 1 to 4 years.

Just adding to the thread a bit and sharing not to say I am right.
Cheers to you Bob your intellect and diligence in your quest for great is a real asset to be drawn from.

 

[Knucklehead]

AmaxplanB, just curious, but will the temperature numbers you gave be the same for someone living in a humid area as it will be for someone living in a dry area? Or will each person need to find his own sweet spot? Will elevation make a difference?

Good to see you back. Did you bring workhorse with you?

Are you talking about additional aging up to 1-4 years after kilning? Is this all varieties or mainly cigar varieties?

 

[leverhead]

So, what's happening here? My simple answer is that I don't understand the process. It may be nothing more than out-gassing of noxious, oxidation byproducts. Perhaps this directly accounts for the changes in the first few days after kilning. I guess that's how I've thought of it. But it may just as likely be other chemical processes that can't seem to move to completion while at kiln temps, but kick into action when the temp is more moderate. I don't know.

Bob

FOOTNOTE: It doesn't matter who started this thread. It's a good thread for all to read.

That's pretty much how I think of it. Changing the conditions changes the equilibrium, volatile compounds leaving the equation changes everything. Attention to detail and keeping good notes might allow you to do something twice. It might also keep you from doing something really nasty twice. Nature must be female, she's too complicated to be anything else.

 

[AmaxB]

AmaxplanB, just curious, but will the temperature numbers you gave be the same for someone living in a humid area as it will be for someone living in a dry area? Or will each person need to find his own sweet spot? Will elevation make a difference?

Good to see you back. Did you bring workhorse with you?

Great question, leave it to you to get to the gritty. If all kilns were the same I would think impact of location would be low if done like I do it. But should the tobacco be exposed to the kiln's environment I would think it would have an impact. For me there is no crock pot and my tobacco is not exposed. As for cold sweat - yes but I cannot really say because I don't move around. The numbers I throw out should be a guide or just background to work with. So unless you are doing things as I am, use them as a guide (useful insight). Study your work and after a batch or two you will have a good idea of where to be.

My kiln is closed and sealed like an oven with air flow top to bottom and bottom to top to keep interior heat uniform. I use a small griddle with PID control for heat with a TC 4 to 5 inches from the ceiling. I like this because response to temperature change is quick. My tobacco goes into containers (dry) as it is placed I mist it with spring water (layers) than when full the container is sealed. After 1 day it is checked and should be in a medium high case but not wet at all.
Once you get the hang of this you know what is right. Until than an eye must be kept for mold, if found the tobacco must be checked and mold removed. If mold has attached to the container the tobacco should be placed in a clean container after removing all mold. It is good to go easy on the water until you develop your skill.

What makes this method great (in my mind) is there is little need to fiddle around. You simply remove the lid for a few minutes every few days to let the gases out. The moisture remains much the same so you do not have to fight to keep it. The real plus is it is uniform through out the bulk. If your kiln is good temperature remains constant with little change, unless you caused the change. Opening the kiln has little effect on the tobacco unless it is left open for a while. As I said in a prior post I remove the container and reorder the tobacco, what was on the bottom goes to the top, what was in the middle goes to the bottom, and what was on the top goes to the middle. This allows for airing and a uniform result through out the tobacco bulk. The moisture is all important as is the temperature. I have found lower temperature to produce better tobacco - but risk of mold comes with the lower temperature so the amount of moisture become more important to control the mold. But at the same time must be kept high enough for the tobacco to age. Burley will work well at the same temperature as bright leaf, but it seems a temperature that is a little higher will give a better result when working burley. Also more time is better for burley, I work them together but in different containers and will leave the burley an extra week. Makes it smoother.

Cheers to your status Knuckles

Did not know workhorse was missing.

 

[AmaxB]

There is my buddy - I see ya in those bushes!

Let us not neglect method - through it we may control a small environment.

 

[smoker]

Am i missing a step?

First post here. Whoa I guess so! Interesting anyway.

 

[Boboro]

If all elese fails ask Kunkle head. thas what I do.

 

[Boboro]

He got some sorta data base.

 

[holyRYO]

Rolled my first smoke and was shocked to get a smoke that was so acrid and harsh i couldnt even finish it.

Mike, if you are up to it, try the new Prilep. It will really smooth out a blend. I would start with any of the Flue Cured blended 3 or 4 parts to 1 part Prilep.

 

[smoker]

Not to get track or seem negative, but doe's oriental tobacco require intensive processing too or is it ready to go as is? I was thinking about an American blend with a skeleton of roughly 60% Virginia ( Redleaf, Gold, and Lemon ) 30% burley ( maybe expensive white higland pipe tobacco that is not topped ) and 10% oriental. Izmir sounded good but Prilep doe's too after reading about it. I just don't know how much sweeter it is and the high class pipe tobacco will likely be a little sweet too though it is not supposed to be topped . I don't want a candy cigarette I like the of the offerings here and the site seems to be straight forward and honest. The kilning and "artificial aging" is very interesting regardless. I had overlooked mention of this in my reading.

 

[DonH]

Not to get track or seem negative, but doe's oriental tobacco require intensive processing too or is it ready to go as is? I was thinking about an American blend with a skeleton of roughly 60% Virginia ( Redleaf, Gold, and Lemon ) 30% burley ( maybe expensive white higland pipe tobacco that is not topped ) and 10% oriental. Izmir sounded good but Prilep doe's too after reading about it. I just don't know how much sweeter it is and the high class pipe tobacco will likely be a little sweet too though it is not supposed to be topped . I don't want a candy cigarette I like the of the offerings here and the site seems to be straight forward and honest. The kilning and "artificial aging" is very interesting regardless. I had overlooked mention of this in my reading.

The oriental, either the Izmir or the Prilep, is ready to go as is. People toast Burley to smooth it down a bit, and also toast or steam Virginia if they're putting it in a pipe tobacco blend to reduce the tongue bite. For cigarettes you don't need to do anything to Virginia types.

 

[Brown Thumb]

He got some sorta data base.

Jeesh, Dont tell the whole world our secrets